AYESHA RASCOE, HOST:
Sundays are a day when families can kick back, maybe even shoot some hoops.
GAVIN ROSS: Yeah, that's definitely my favorite.
RYAN ROSS: I don't know if it's my favorite anymore because he's grown 4 inches in the last six months, and he's starting to beat me (laughter).
RASCOE: Ryan Ross is no shorty. He stands at 6-foot-2. He's the CEO of the Urban Leadership Foundation of Colorado. His son, Gavin Ross, is a sophomore in high school who's now 5-foot-10 and still growing. Basketball is more than a game for them. It helps them to slow down, bond and reflect on their lives as Black men.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
RASCOE: Today, that's especially poignant because it's been five years since George Floyd was murdered by a police officer in Minneapolis. His death spurred protests nationwide and promises for police reforms and diversity policies, many of which are now being rolled back. How does a Black father like Ryan Ross think about this anniversary? What is the talk like between him and Gavin? Conversations about the realities of being Black in America. I asked him first to talk to me about what he was thinking when Gavin was born 15 years ago.
R ROSS: You know, I had a flood of emotions, you know, just making sure that I figured out how to make sure I was good with God, and, you know, I wanted him to be safe. I wanted him to be successful. I wanted to give him the things that I didn't have, wanted to make sure that his life was going to be different than mines and not have to experience some of the things I experienced growing up.
RASCOE: Did you have a fear about living up to your expectations or were you more - I guess, were your fears more internal, or were they more external?
R ROSS: It was both, right? Like, internally, it was, you know, measuring up to be the kind of man that I knew I could be, that I wanted to be, the kind of man that he could be proud of every day. And externally, it's the world, man. It's a challenging place for young Black men to navigate and, you know, wanting to protect him and to try to mitigate some of the experiences that I knew undoubtedly he was going to have.
RASCOE: How do you both feel about the police? - because that's that outside world. That's that part that's out of your control. And I want to start with Gavin.
G ROSS: Well, in elementary school, I was taught that they were put in place to protect us, serve us and just make sure everyone follows the rules. You know, in a way, I even looked up to that. But as I've grown older, I've started to see that the very people, you know, I look to to protect me started to discriminate against and harm the community I hold most dear.
RASCOE: Was there a moment that it started to switch for you?
G ROSS: I remember Tamir Rice. He was around 12 years old. He was playing with a toy gun, and he was shot by Cleveland police officers. That was around 2014, the year my sister was born. And it kind of just put into perspective, like, now I have to take on the responsibility of being a big brother. And just seeing this evil starting to brew in the world - it made me scared.
RASCOE: You were about 6, so you remember that?
G ROSS: Yeah.
R ROSS: You know, we have had this conversation many times, and every time I hear him express his feelings, I am - like, I am enraged. This is what I was trying to protect him from, right? Six years old, being afraid of the police, having to think critically about your behaviors, what you wear - Do you wear a hoodie? Do you not wear a hoodie? And the fact that he was having to negotiate these kinds of thoughts, that is just super disheartening and it's sad.
And that leads me to my feelings about the police. And it's complicated - right? - because I have good friends who've made the choice to become police officers, and that's great. But, you know, the police, to me - it's like the beginning of a Charles Dickens novel - right? - the best of times and the worst of times. Especially for Black men because when you get pulled over by the police or you engage with the police - first of all, you get that feeling in your stomach, you get that lump in your throat, like, you're nervous. Every experience that every other Black man has had, you are, like, living it in seconds because you don't know if you're going to have a good situation or you're going to have a traumatic situation that's literally going to change the trajectory of your life or kill you.
RASCOE: Have you had a lot of encounters with the police?
R ROSS: Not lately, thank goodness. But when I was younger, I was afforded an opportunity to receive a scholarship to a private Catholic school - by car, 45 minutes away from my house, by bus, three hours, right? I play football. Games - you know, obviously, games are at 7. They're over around 9 or 10. The bus stopped running after a certain time of the evening, and so in order to get home, you got to get a ride. And one evening, a friend of ours gave us a ride home - was a white girl.
RASCOE: All the boys in that car were Black boys?
R ROSS: Yep, all Black boys from my neighborhood, right? Police officer pulls her over, and, you know, you don't hear, hey, ma'am, do you know why I pulled you over? Hey, are you having a good evening? First thing you hear is, what are you doing? Are you OK? Are you safe? Why are these men in the car with you? We end up being pulled out of the car, sitting on the side of the road.
You know, if one of us would have decided to advocate for our rights, to say that something wasn't fair, Gavin may not be alive, and I may not be having this conversation with you. For me, that was the moment when I knew I just couldn't trust police officers.
RASCOE: Today marks the fifth anniversary of the murder of George Floyd. Gavin, you were 10 years old then. What do you remember about that?
G ROSS: I didn't hear about it right away. When I did, my parents told me. The main figure that stood out for me was the time. That police officer kneeled on George Floyd's neck for nine minutes. When I think about that, I just think of the immeasurable pain he was going through. At that young age, you know, my fear was solidified, and I knew I'd have to be a lot more cautious.
RASCOE: Gavin, you're going to be taking your test to get a driver's license soon, and you could have your own set of wheels. What have you and your dad talked about as far as what to do if you're pulled over?
G ROSS: A few simple rules, right? You make sure that you follow every instruction to the T. No sudden movements. Even beforehand, make sure your license and registration are in the vehicle in a place that cannot be mistaken for anything, honestly, just so that way you can protect yourself. The main important thing that he told me was that my job is just to make it home.
RASCOE: Ryan, you know, I - obviously, I have an 11-year-old son - my baby. He's growing up and will be a Black man in this world. And I have a hard time even taking all this in. I know it. You know, this is not new to me, but I hate when I think about it with my son, with my baby. It makes me so mad because he doesn't deserve that. He's sweet. He's kind. Like, how does it feel to you to have to talk about this with your baby?
R ROSS: It kills me, but I know it has to be done, right? I think about Emmett Till all the time - full of charisma, full of personality, and boom, some people have taken his life and have beaten him. We have to teach our kids to put themselves in the best situations to be safe while not totally just not living and becoming bubble people, right? But we want to make sure that they have the skills and ability to always make it home.
RASCOE: At this moment, there's a lot of talk about diversity, equity and inclusion and anti-DEI policies. And Dr. Ryan Sutton, a psychologist and professor at UT Austin, says this damages the psyches of Black people.
RYAN SUTTON: When we have more anti-DEI policies that do not allow us to critique a system, you end up pathologizing the people who are, quote-unquote, the victims of that system. It's your fault that you're acting this way. It's your fault for feeling this way. And it's not just from the outside in. People themselves might be grappling with, what's wrong with me? This is a me issue.
RASCOE: How is this playing out in your work right now?
R ROSS: You know, it is - it's live, man. People are internalizing this and thinking that it's their fault, right? From the moment Black folks were enslaved and brought to this country, the playbook was enacted. Take away reading, take away critical thinking, take away community to damage the psyche of people. We cannot allow that same playbook, those same antics, to come back into this generation and poison it again.
RASCOE: Well, where do the both of you get that reassurance, at this moment, of who you are as human beings who are Black men?
G ROSS: You know, wholeheartedly, my entire life, my father, he's been there for me, and every single day, he instills these affirmations in me. They really help me. Without those affirmations, you know, things might have been a lot different.
RASCOE: Ryan, talk to me about these affirmations. How did you come up with them?
R ROSS: Well, you know, it's just speaking life and speaking love into my son and to my daughter. That just helped them keep going throughout the day and just allow them to stand on business in terms of who they are, right? And so every day, when I, you know, drop them off to school, I would be like, hey, Gavin, do your best.
G ROSS: And have fun...
R ROSS: All day long...
G ROSS: ...Focus strong.
R ROSS: You can do...
G ROSS: ...Anything I put my mind to.
RASCOE: That's Ryan Ross and his son Gavin Ross. Thank you both so much for being so open and speaking with us today.
R ROSS: Thank you for having us.
G ROSS: Of course.
(SOUNDBITE OF ROBOHANDS' "WHOLE") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
