SC Public Radio reporter Maayan Schechter interviewed Congressman Jim Clyburn on July 26, 2024, by Zoom. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
MAAYAN SCHECHTER, REPORTER: Since President (Joe) Biden exited the race and Vice President Kamala Harris entered the race, we’ve seen reports about millions of dollars in fundraising. We've seen, I think a multi-thousand attendance via Zoom with Black women, then we saw one with Black men, and I think last night there were, like, over 100,000 white women who joined a Zoom and raised a couple million dollars. And, so, I'm curious, when you look at this past week, what’s your reaction been to this energy that you're seeing around Harris? Do you feel like this is what Democrats have sort of needed over these last few months?
JIM CLYBURN: Here from the very beginning, that issue was not going to go away. You can't reverse the aging process. I'm almost three years older than Joe Biden. And, so, I know what that's all about. And then, of course, that became a very complicated after the debate, when all kinds of issues were raised about the debate.
And so there were many people calling for him to, to step aside. And there are people who, like myself, loyal supporters of his, we all had concerns and had to do a pretty big job of trying to just calm people's anxieties. And, so, when he made the decision not to go any further with his candidacy, that energized young people, energized women, energized a lot of people of color, and there are Democrats who felt that these are the kinds constituencies that we need to take the House back and to hold on to the Senate. And they needed this kind of emotions to get injected into the campaign, and, so, her candidacy seemed to have done that.
But I'm a little bit like James Carville, maybe it's because of our first names, but if you've got all this energy, we've got to harness this energy, and we've got to target this energy in such a way to be effective. And, so, yes, people are signing up to vote that just never thought about signing up before I understand.
Voter registration going through the roof. People are sending contributions that never sent contributions before. People are looking at this Project 2025, and they are really, really concerned about what's going to happen to these programs that we've relied upon. I don't know how anybody can look at Project 2025 and not be alarmed.
So her candidacy has really put a lot of emotions into this campaign that wasn't there before.
SCHECHTER: I want to ask you about that energy in a minute, but you were long supportive of President Biden's sticking in the race and said that, you know, you would support whatever decision that he made. When you look, I guess then at the last week, I mean, do you think it was the right move for him, or do you think that he could have held on through November? Do you feel like just at this point now, it was the right decision for him to step aside?
CLYBURN: President Biden called me on Sunday to tell me of his decision. I was not surprised, because I was with him for two days in the prior week. We were out at the NAACP national convention together, the National Bar Association. I was with him for two days. Flew out with him. We had a long talk on Air Force One going out there, and I noticed in our conversations they were all about policy. He didn't talk to me about politics at all. And, so, that was a tip off to me, that his preoccupation was with getting a peace deal in Israel, holding on to NATO, the NATO alliance, and protecting Ukraine. These are the conversations.
So I said to myself, because I didn't fly back with him, I came back to South Carolina to be with the secretary of education on Wednesday, and I looked back on the conversations. I've said to myself, the fire in the belly that's needed for a campaign, I didn't detect that. He was preoccupied with policy.
So when he called me and told me, I said to him, I said, 'Well, I support your decision and I want to thank you for you stewardship, your friendship and stewardship,' is what I told him. And, we went on from there.
SCHECHTER: You spoke also to Vice President Harris on Sunday as well?
CLYBURN: Yes, I did.
SCHECHTER: Any advice you gave her?
CLYBURN: ... He read some of it (Biden's exit statement) to me and, I did say to him, that, though I thought it was a good statement that I thought something was missing in the statement that I thought needed to be there. And ... I said to him, your very first decision, as, the nominee of our party, was to name a running mate. And you named the vice president. ... Kamala has been a good running mate, and I think it would be a mistake not to express support for her candidacy, because to leave her out of this would be construed as you were having made a mistake when you selected her to be a running mate.
That would certainly be part of the discussion. And he said to me at that time that he was going to issue a second statement 30 minutes after the first one. And that statement he would be endorsing her candidacy.
So I was on my way to dinner. Sunday happened to be my birthday. And so I was having dinner with my daughters and other family members. And by the time I got to the restaurant, it was on the air that he had issued this statement. Well, shortly thereafter, I got a phone call from the vice president, and we ended up talking twice on Sunday. And I, she knew that I was going to be supporting her.
SCHECHTER: What a way to celebrate your birthday. I'm assuming this is one of those birthdays you're going to remember. I want to go back to that energy you were talking about and harnessing that energy. Obviously Democrats are headed to Chicago next month for the DNC (Democratic National Convention). What do Democrats need to do next month? What do they need to show the country on stage or at the convention center in Chicago?
CLYBURN: You know, I'm not going to tell them how to run the convention. I don't know anything about event planning and that next sort of thing. Whoever planned our last convention, as you remember it was virtual, it was one of the most effective conventions we ever had. I've been to ever convention since 1972, and it (the virtual convention) was very, very effective I thought.
I said to someone, whoever planned that convention, I hope they're working on this one, because this convention, in my opinion, need to be a real passing of the torch. I think that we need to open up on Monday with our expressions of gratitude to Joe Biden. We need to have a real passing of the torch ceremony from one generation to the next.
... And Tuesday and Wednesday, lay out what a contrast between what our vision is for the future as opposed to Project 2025 that irrespective of what this prolific liar says about Project 2025, it's his staff that put project 2025 together. He lauded the chairman of the Heritage Foundation several months ago, who put that together. That's their document. That's their vision of an autocratic future for the United States of America.
... Look, that's what we ought to be talking about on Tuesday and Wednesday. And then let the president on Thursday, president-elect make her (speech) on Thursday night. ... Monday night ought to be about passing the torch. And Tuesday and Wednesday will be about picking up the baton.
SCHECHTER: Do you or do you have a speaking role at all on stage during the DNC?
CLYBURN: They haven't told me. I don't know.
SCHECHTER: I want to ask you about the other night, President Biden's address that he gave to the nation. Do you think it was effective in terms of that passing of the torch? Do you think he delivered his message effectively to the country?
CLYBURN: I thought it was very effective. ... I thought it was right to the point. ...
SCHECHTER: I want to ask about your legacy, because you obviously have had such a cemented legacy even within the Biden administration. You're credited with boost giving him that boost to the nomination in 2020, you advised him to pick a Black woman for the U.S. Supreme Court. That happened. We've seen broadband funding get prioritized, other money that's flowed to South Carolina. How do you view your legacy through the lens of the Biden administration? And then do you think, is that going to translate over to a potential Harris administration? Is there any requests or anything that you would like to see her get done if she is elected president?
CLYVURN: Well, you know, I've made it very clear, but the answer, in fact, there's one answer I give to all questions like that as to my legacy. And it's a very clear, very understandable. And I've told my daughters I want it on my tombstone when that time comes: He did his best to make America's greatness accessible and affordable for all its citizens. That's all. And that's what I try to do.
And that's what broadband is all about. And I said to them when we were writing the bill, that no infrastructure program should be written if just to focus on roads and bridges and water and sewage, because there's much more to infrastructure than that. There were people in rural communities all over this country who were disconnected from the rest of the world because of a lack of broadband. So, if you look at the name of the bill, it is "accessible and affordable broadband for all."
That's the name of the bill that was wrapped into, set that bill out as an independent bill, and it became a part of the infrastructure bill. And that's it. If it's education, how do we make it accessible and affordable? If it's health care, how do we make it accessible and affordable? I get sick and tired of people telling me that we got the greatest health care system in the world. Is it accessible to everybody? Is it affordable by everybody? So this whole thing about having a good education, so people from all over the world come here for education, but is it accessible to all? And we know that we have not made education accessible and affordable for everybody. So that's that's me, and that's what what I do every day.
I don't care what program comes across my desk, what program my staff may develop. They have to answer that question from me: How do we make it accessible for everybody? How do we make it affordable by everybody?
SCHECHTER: Is there anything particular that that you would like to see a Harris administration achieve similar to some of the asks that you made of the Biden administration. Anything in particular that you think that she needs to prioritize if elected?
CLYBURN: I think she needs to prioritize Social Security. ... There's one thing that I've not been able to get the Biden administration to focus sufficiently on. There's a lot of good discussions going on, but I think that Social Security is the greatest, most innovative program this country has put together to preserve the integrity of people's golden years.
But people give 35 and 40 years to make in this country a good place for our children and grandchildren. They ought to be able to have dignity in their golden years. And that's what Social Security is all about. Social Security ought to be a priority for us, but we know it's not a priority for the other party.
They hate Social Security. They've been trying to get rid of it ever since it's been in place. And why that is, I don't know. I don't know why they don't want people to have dignity in their later years. Now they want to get rid of this, the civil service system, so people will not have dignity in the workplace, be subjected to the whims of autocrats and bureaucrats. That I don't know. So I would hope that kind, those kinds of efforts would be a priority for the next administration.
SCHECHTER: I have a couple of questions lastly for you. One is about down ballot races. You know, in the past presidential cycle, the presidential race was not super kind to a lot of Democrats who ran in the State House, (they) lost five seats. Obviously, there's not a lot of competitive congressional races except on the 1st (Congressional) District. And so I have a question about that. A couple years ago, when Joe Cunningham was running for president or, excuse me, running for governor, he was very critical about President Biden and his age. And I believe you said in response that he needed to grow up.
We saw, the Democratic nominee (for U.S House) in the 1st District, Michael B. Moore, very early this month, call for President Biden to step aside, really before a lot of other South Carolina Democrats were really doing that — if they were doing that. I'm curious, do you think that that kind of messaging so early will hurt his chances of being successful in the 1st District? Or do you think that district is just so, so much more tilting conservative that it's hard to win anyway?
CLYBURN: Well, I don't tell anybody how to run their race. People who run their races in any way they want to, I would never, ever ask anybody to step aside for me. ... And so I would say to anybody, if you have a dream or aspiration, go out and run.
The first time I ran for office back in 1970, I ran for office right there in Charleston. I didn't ask anybody permission. I put my name on the ballot and I ran. I won the primary and I lost the general because the local powers that be did not support my candidacy. I was a little bit too brash for them.
I didn't apologize to them. I just, I ran, and when I lost and the news media asked why I lost, all I ever said was I didn't get enough votes. That was my attitude. And that's still my attitude today. So these people who say, you need to step aside so I can have it. So if I step aside, what makes you think you're going to get it? There's a lot of other people who may want it.
And so this whole notion of stepping aside, to me, is a lack of (maturity). That's why I said they need to grow up.
SCHECHTER: Going back to Vice President Harris, going back to also that excitement, we've seen, not just with, you know, specific groups of people, we've seen younger voters, really generating a lot of buzz around her. We've seen all these TikTok videos that have popped up. I don't know if your your staff or your daughters had talk to you about this whole brat phenomenon, but, I mean, what do you make of that? That there's this whole youth coalition that is kind of reemerged, I guess, and really backing what seems to be Harris's candidacy.
CLYBURN: Well, you know, I, I grew up in the parsonage and, I was on, about 30 minutes ago with a group with a faith group up in New York. And I said to them, I said, you know, I believe in the third chapter of Ecclesiastes, says there's a time and a place for everything under the sun. And I think that that is what is coming forth in this. This is a season, and we did not have it with Joe Biden. We didn't have it with Jim Clyburn. But this is a season.
And what I find interesting, you mentioned my daughters. I had to get one of them off the phone so I could come here, and be with you at this moment. ... And she was calling me about a group of young people who want to meet with me next week. The meeting is not about me stepping aside. The meeting is about them wanting to take full advantage of the 10-20-30 program that I put in place some years ago.
Jaime Harrison's now chairman of the Democratic National Committee. I got Jamie when he was an 11th grade student, and he will tell you that I'm his political father. I made him a national person by giving him the experience. And he was 29 years old when I put him in charge of my floor operation when I was majority whip. ... And so, these people want to meet with me because all they said, you the most popular person among our young people's group.
So I think that what you do is just put yourself out there, be yourself. And people will determine (whether) they want you to continue being yourself or somebody else. So what has happened here is Joe Biden saw the need to step aside.
Now, there are a lot of people who wanted an open process, let's have an open convention. I was not in that group, and I made it very clear that I was going to do everything I possibly could to close this process down so that we won't have a contentious convention, so that we can have a lovefest and people looking in on us. It's like being in a family, family business ought to be conducted in private. We ought not have a family fight in public.
And so if we are going to be a family as Democrats, we ought not have these family discussions or disagreements in the public arena. Let's have a lovefest when we hold ourselves out to the public. Every time you've ever had an open convention, in my lifetime, and that's been a pretty long time, ...1968, we had an open convention and we ended up with Richard Nixon. In 1972, we had an open convention, end up carrying one state and the District of Columbia. (Then in)1980, we had an open convention, and Kennedy challenged Jimmy Carter, and Jimmy Carter lost the presidency.
The same thing would have happened this year. I think we can win this election. But if we had an open convention with fights on the convention floor, we will lose and lose badly. And that's why I worked as hard as I did to make sure we coalesced back around the vice president.
SCHECHTER: Let me ask this quick question. I know you've thrown out a lot of names for who you might who Harris should potentially pick as her vice president. Is there anybody that is, you think, leading the pack that you are kind of really kind of cheerleading for as far as vice presidential pick?
CLYBURN: I think we got a great bench. She's has a lot of people to select from. I think Gov. Waltz, out in Minnesota, I think he's coming on this strong. He has an interesting resume. I served with him in the House. ... Pete Buttigieg, who's been a tremendous, transportation secretary would make a good running mate.
(Gov.) Josh Shapiro, up in Pennsylvania. We've got a lot of good people. I don't know (Mark) Kelly as well. I know who Kelly is. I served with his wife. In fact, we were serving together when she was shot and she still suffers from that. But I know Kelly. I know Waltz probably better and Buttigieg.
But we got a lot of good people. I mentioned the governor of North Carolina, Roy Cooper, I think is a real good guy. I do understand that he has requested not to be vetted. So, he doesn't plan to go any further with this. ... It's a good crop. ... She has to make a decision as to how the vibes are. It's one thing to have a running mate, it's (another to have) a running mate that you're comfortable with. I think that's what's happening on the other side right now. I think as bad as Trump is, Vance is worse.
