One in eight low-income Americans rely on the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, known as SNAP.
And that includes more than 556,000 South Carolinians.
Over the weekend, NPR reported the Trump administration told states on Saturday to "immediately undo" any actions they already made to provide benefits to SNAP recipients. The move comes after the U.S. Supreme Court granted a stay and temporarily blocked a lower court order that said SNAP benefits must be paid in full in November.
MAAYAN SCHECHTER, HOST:
Michael Leach, who ran South Carolina's Department of Social Services for more than five years and is now the chief external engagement officer at Think of Us, a national nonprofit focusing on child welfare matters, joined me via Zoom to discuss what states should be communicating with recipients during what is the longest government shutdown in history and what states should be thinking short and long term for the SNAP program.
Thanks for joining me Michael.
MICHAEL LEACH: Thanks Maayan.
SCHECHTER: What do you want people who may never have interacted with the program to know about SNAP and to know about the people who rely on it?
LEACH: In South Carolina, and probably across the country, the majority of SNAP recipients are children. There's a lot of seniors and there are a lot of people with disabilities. Sometimes I don't think people understand that most of the folks getting these resources are those three populations right there. Most working-age adults on SNAP are already working, but often in low-wage jobs, seasonal work, or jobs with unstable hours. But I do think that's important because I do think ... a misconception is that most individuals who are working age do not have a job who are receiving SNAP, and that's not accurate.
And then for most families, SNAP is temporary. This does not go on forever. People do get stable, high-paying, more high-paying jobs. They may only need it for illnesses or crisis or things like that. And, eventually, hopefully their situation continues to improve to where they don't need that long term.
SCHECHTER: In Congress, we've heard a lot about fraud in the program. And, recently, Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins described SNAP as "so bloated, so broken, so dysfunctional, and so corrupt." How serious of a problem do you think fraud is in the SNAP program? And do you believe that it is something that Congress perhaps needs to prioritize down the road?
LEACH: I do think Congress needs to look at the program in totality, and understand why there is so much stealing of benefits going on and the open access around that. But I can tell you, fraud rates are very low and most errors in the program come from paperwork issues or outdated wage data, or processing delays, not intentional misuse. When people update information easily, when there's better technologies within the states and systems by text, online, real time, income verification, things like that, accuracy and access improves.
Business fraud is extremely rare. It does happen and we have seen fraud to where DSS and its sort of accountability team do go after individuals who have fraudulently (taken advantage of) the system. I think the the bigger issue within SNAP is the skimming where ... criminals steal benefits by cloning EBT cards and technology issues, not a behavioral one. Families are the victims, not the cause in most cases. Obviously, the whole system needs to look at the technologies around that and how we continue to work around these folks who are trying to make families the victims in this. So chip cards. Most states don't have chip cards. That would be a very helpful tool, cutting off access to where some of this stealing of benefits comes from. Like in South Carolina, we knew a lot of it was coming from New York. And so the state knows that, but is not allowed to cut some of that access off because the federal government will not allow it. But those are the things that somebody needs to look into to be able to protect the folks that are receiving the benefits.
SCHECHTER: I want to ask you about the short- and long-term solutions for the program, since that's something that you've recently talked about. You told POLITICO that you hope to see states prioritize facts about the lapse in benefits. South Carolina, as you know, launched the One SC Fund to help distribute aid to food banks. They've raised more than, I believe, $230,000 — far below what their wanted goal is. We've seen other states tap into their own budgets to fill the gap. Short term, what specifically do you think states need to be doing and really saying to folks right now?
LEACH: I think clear communication about what is available and what's not and what's not available. Over the last three days, ... it's kind of gone back-and-forth. The states are probably trying to figure out what is the current guidance from the USDA and making sure that gets out. At the same time, updating their systems to provide the level of benefit that is allowable at this point or not allowable. Those are two things.
And then making sure their communication, letters and notices are up to date. It is a lot of behind-the-scenes work to make sure that as the program changes, now and into the future with the work requirement that is going to be required, there's a lot of behind the scenes things that need to change. What states need to focus on in South Carolina is just clearing backlogs, communicate clearly with families about when benefits will load so people can plan, do targeted outreach with certain populations. Former foster youth and kin caregivers, I think are really important ones because they're more likely to fall through the cracks in all of this. And then support line, support your frontline staff ... because they're the ones talking to the client, the consumer about what is going on. They need to have clear communication. The best way to do this now and in the future is designing solutions with families who rely on it. We at Think of Us help states or can help states co-create with the consumer, the family, the individual on SNAP to redesign notices and forms and reporting processes so families don't miss anything and have a better understanding of it all.
SCHECHTER: When we're talking about long term, in the next two to three years under federal legislation, the federal share of costs to run the program will start to kind of flow onto states. There'll be more weight on states to take up some of that share. And there's been concern that has come along with that, could potentially mean some recipients will lose their benefits. There could be less money to go around. Assuming at some point the shutdown does end, what conversations do you believe that states need to be having right now about the future of the program and those who rely on it, especially given the fact that at some point they are going to start shouldering more of those costs?
LEACH: With the work requirements, and again, South Carolina already has some fairly restrictive work requirements, more so than maybe some of the other states do. But there is going to be more reporting that is required on the state side. So as far as managing whole new pool of individuals, which has increased, it's the ages have increased as well, there'll be potentially more penalties for missing hours or paperwork. Most adults who can work already obviously do and and it may not reflect the reality of sort of the labor market and instability faced by low-wage workers. ... The changes are going to hit earlier and harder as soon as the states update their rules. There's a lot to think about ahead of time. There's a lot of preparation. Again, I encourage states to work with the recipients to make sure that they understand that the changes, what can they do, what can't they do with the new regulations that are coming out, and just trying to really help figure it out because it's going to be significant. It's going to be significant ... in how it works and how people understand it works.
We know that SNAP is one of the most effective programs we have. It moves money directly into local grocery stores and helps families stay afloat. We do know that. South Carolina and other states, their long-term focus should be sort of reducing churn throughout all of this as they continue to work on the workforce, updated workforce regulations, improving access, and giving families real pathways to stability. As they implement these new rules, they have to keep those things in mind. There may be ways that they can do that within the new rules, and there are ways that maybe they can't do what they, you just can't do what's absolutely needed in that area. And the best way to do all of this, again, I think I've mentioned previously, is to listen to the folks being served, listen to the families, and design the program around the realities of their lives. Because, again, folks are really, really trying, and this is a resource to help them, again, stay afloat and get to that next circumstance, that better future that they want.
SCHECHTER: That's Michael Leach, the former director of South Carolina's Department of Social Services and the chief external engagement officer at Think of Us. Thanks so much for joining me, Michael.
LEACH: Thank you very much for having me.
Editor's Note: This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
